Is it time to shut down this effort?

[Keith N. McKenna]

My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.

Keith

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

[BCC dev@]

Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."

The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss" feature).

If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.

- Dennis

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.
Keith

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[Keith N. McKenna]

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss" feature).
If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
- Dennis

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.
Keith

Dennis;

This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
documentation.

My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
different form.

I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.

Regards
Keith

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the

MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source
project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
feature).

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages

and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
- Dennis

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for

almost

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.
Keith

Dennis;
This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
documentation.
My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
different form.
I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.

[orcmid]

I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."

Close the doc@ list?

What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?

Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the wiki.

The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what there is. Positive effort is not wasted.

Regards
Keith

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[Dennis E. Hamilton]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 18:24
Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the

MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-

source

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
feature).

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages

and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
- Dennis

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for

almost

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear

the

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

opinions of others though.
Keith

Dennis;
This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development

of

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
documentation.
My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not

doing

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
different form.
I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.

[orcmid]
I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is

called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the
download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where
power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the
wiki.

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton
The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room

for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what
there is. Positive effort is not wasted.

Post by Dennis E. Hamilton

Regards
Keith

Dennis;
I specifically did not bring this to the dev list because I wanted to
illicit responses from the members of the documentation list as to their
thoughts before I came to the dev list with a concrete proposal. Since
you insist on bringing it here I will bow to your insistence and express
my thoughts her.

[orcmid]

Keith, I think there is a misunderstanding about the purpose of the dev@ list. It is the place to work something out in the community that involves all of the stakeholders.

The reason for my BCC (and not CC: cross-posting) was so the conversation could remain on doc@ but dev@ could participate, appreciating that there are participants on doc@ that are not on ***@.

So I failed at that, since the conversation has moved completely to ***@. It's a weekend, so we perhaps should not make too much about the fact of complete silence on doc@ so far [;<). As you've seen already, there is discussion energy on ***@. That there is a diversity of opinion and there are differences is not a bad thing. And remember, "don't feed the trolls."

It may well be that the doc@ list is not needed. Perhaps the way for writers to communicate is in the wiki structure itself. We have the community wiki and we have the MediaWiki as avenues for that although I am uncertain how comfortable technical writers are with a wiki as a tumultuous open-source writing experience with distributed participants.

- Dennis

It is very simple. The documentation list serves no purpose and should
be closed down. We have tried numerous times to generate more interest
in gaining volunteers to help with documentation to no avail. Your board
reports have succinctly stated that the "documentation effort" is
stalled. Trying to get more people is doomed to failure unless we can
attract experienced tech writers that are willing to take the time to
mentor new volunteers and to overhaul the wiki editing policy and the
style guide to reflect current conditions and practices in the
discipline. This has not happened and I do not see it happening in the
future.
It is time that we realize that writing documentation is a unique skill
set and requires as much coaching and mentoring of new volunteers as
does writing code. We need up to date policies and procedures on how to
edit the wiki pages and we desperately need a coherent style guide on
what documentation looks like. To the best of my knowledge we do not
have anyone with the requisite skills actively engaged in the project
that can provide those.

[orcmid]

I agree that a technical editor with experience making these kinds of arrangements would be of great assistance.

Regards
Keith

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[Andrea Pescetti]

Post by Keith N. McKenna
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.

(I know this conversation moved to the dev list, but I'm answering here
since it fits here)

There is some significant work done and we shouldn't throw it away.
Everything is on the wiki, so we could just keep what we have and
dispose of the process.

I mean: we can link to the (unfinished) new documentation from the wiki
home page, design some template saying "This page is part of an
unfinished documentation effort, please e-mail [this list] if you'd like
to contribute" and put it on all pages that are still unfinished or just
a title.

Then the risk is to lose a bit of oversight and consistency, but at
least we show what we have and we give people the opportunity to help if
the wish.

By the way, thanks Keith for your documentation efforts so far. And if I
were you, I would simply relax the process and be available for creating
accounts for new volunteers and give advice when needed. This way we
don't have to close or undo anything.

Regards,
Andrea.

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[Dennis E. Hamilton]

+1

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 14:58
Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?

Post by Keith N. McKenna
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for

almost

Post by Keith N. McKenna
4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.

(I know this conversation moved to the dev list, but I'm answering here
since it fits here)
There is some significant work done and we shouldn't throw it away.
Everything is on the wiki, so we could just keep what we have and
dispose of the process.
I mean: we can link to the (unfinished) new documentation from the wiki
home page, design some template saying "This page is part of an
unfinished documentation effort, please e-mail [this list] if you'd like
to contribute" and put it on all pages that are still unfinished or just
a title.
Then the risk is to lose a bit of oversight and consistency, but at
least we show what we have and we give people the opportunity to help if
the wish.
By the way, thanks Keith for your documentation efforts so far. And if I
were you, I would simply relax the process and be available for creating
accounts for new volunteers and give advice when needed. This way we
don't have to close or undo anything.
Regards,
Andrea.
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[Keith N. McKenna]

Post by Andrea Pescetti

Post by Keith N. McKenna
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.

(I know this conversation moved to the dev list, but I'm answering here
since it fits here)
There is some significant work done and we shouldn't throw it away.
Everything is on the wiki, so we could just keep what we have and
dispose of the process.

[knmc]
It makes no sense to throw away the work that is already done and really
there has not been a process for quite some time.

Post by Andrea Pescetti
I mean: we can link to the (unfinished) new documentation from the wiki
home page, design some template saying "This page is part of an
unfinished documentation effort, please e-mail [this list] if you'd like
to contribute" and put it on all pages that are still unfinished or just
a title.
Then the risk is to lose a bit of oversight and consistency, but at
least we show what we have and we give people the opportunity to help if
the wish.

[knmc]
The problem I see with that is that without a minimal amount of
consistency it looks very sloppy and does not present a good image for
the project as a whole and the ASF.

Post by Andrea Pescetti
By the way, thanks Keith for your documentation efforts so far. And if I
were you, I would simply relax the process and be available for creating
accounts for new volunteers and give advice when needed. This way we
don't have to close or undo anything.

[knmc]
I am not planning on going anywhere and will still monitor this list and
others to be a resource and to do account creation for the m-wiki and
white-listing for the c-wiki.

Regards
Keith

Post by Andrea Pescetti
Regards,
Andrea.